At the pier

Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 735 Location: Grandview New York

This post was at the pier near me I took it in color but liked it better in BW
what do you think ? I am trying to learn what makes a good BW photo any tips or suggestions would be great ...thanks

Joined: 09 Sep 2006 Posts: 114 Location: Boston, MA

Is this B/W film? or digital conversion?

If this is a silver based print I would recomend printing at a higher filter..say 3 or 3.5. Burn the sky and background considerably at the higher filter. Right now your image is very flat and looks like mush. The beauty of black and white is its latitude and its richness of tones. The actually scene probably had about 7-8 stops of dynamic range, 7 of which would have fit within the detail area of your film. Your print is showing about 3-4 stops, without placing the sky in because its about a zone 9. You havent got a black anywhere. Now, I dont mean to sound hard because this a good begining and we all have to start somewhere. it looks like your holding detail in your highlights and deff. in your shadows so dont be affraid to nake some radical decisions when you print. If you have a good neg, you can print this any way you want. print it light, print it dark, print it high contrast, burn and dodge until you get the print that is your own personal image. Not a duplicate of what you saw. this is your picture and the beauty of photography is that we can make it anything we want to. ( well almost).

Good luck shooting. If this was a digital conversion let me know because I can give you some tips on getting the most out of your photoshop conversions.

Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 735 Location: Grandview New York

Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 735 Location: Grandview New York

it is digital , I reworked it ..any better?

Joined: 09 Sep 2006 Posts: 114 Location: Boston, MA

OK
What are you using for a digital camera? Is it a DSLR or a point and shoot? Are you shooting in RAW and converting afterwards, or are you using the B/W mode? Are you metering for your highlight values?

I know you are new at this as you said so I am happy to take you through this.. I just need some info to help guide you along.

A digital sensor responds to light in the same way Color Chromes do. Contrary to the belief that you need to find middle grey, you need to shoot for your highlights because digital does not have the exposure latitude that black and white film has. ( black and white you expose for the second darkest shadow with detail) If you shoot for your highlight values that have detail then you ensure that you are holding detail in them and you let the shadows fall where they may. That said, someone is going to write you and say you need to shoot for 18% grey and in most cases, where your contrast range does not exceed 5 stops ( which is the latitude of a digital sensor on a DSLR) you can do just that. but in this scene, where the contrast range is well beyond the range of the sensor you need to ensure that your highlights are properly exposed for. I deep shadow is much more acceptable and pleasing than a huge blown out sky. Your eye goes to the lightest part of the image first..and in the case of this image it is the entire top half..which makes it difficult to look at the tones in the wood and shadow areas. So in this scene I would have exposed for the top of the pier or the rocks just beyond it. that would ensure that I had some detail in the sky that i could pull out in Camera RAW or burn in in PS.

Always shoot you images that you are going to convert in RAW. You need the color image to give you a properly toned converstion. if you shoot in black and white mode you leaving out a ton of image information.

There are several methods of converstion out there. a few on this site. Most use the channel mixer in photoshop, I prefer a longer more hands on approach that I can go through with you if youd like.

If you really want to get all the tonality of the scene in, you can shoot 3 iamges, one for the highlights, one for the midtones and one for the shadows and mask them together to make a full contrast converstion. Its alot of work, but depending on your goals, it might be something to try.

The reworked copy has better shadow detail, its not as muddy as before, but the blown out areas are very distracting. if you can Id go reshoot this and see if you can come back with a better image file to convert

Joined: 05 Jul 2006 Posts: 735 Location: Grandview New York

ok I'll do that since i scrapped the original image it was in raw to ..shucks oh well I am learning alot ~I have a DSLR camera and almost always shoot in Raw although I am not sure why ,lol ..And I am a real virgin to PS
but not so much to a SLR camera but DSLR is a bit of beast in its own right . As we get more savoy in our understanding ...the camera and myself ...that is I am sure the photos will improve and I am having fun which for me is what its all about .Thanks so much for the time and explainations you have given me ..It's helping me and others alot I'm sure.

Joined: 22 Nov 2006 Posts: 81 Location: MA

throughthelens1125 wrote:

5 stops ( which is the latitude of a digital sensor on a DSLR) you can do just that. but in this scene, where the contrast range is well beyond the range of the sensor you need to ensure that your highlights are properly exposed for.

I agree with most of your explanation, but most dslrs like chromes have a 4 stop limitation, my school has discovered that the aptus 22 digital backs we are shooting actually have a 6 stop limit, when i shoot chromes and i meter and theres a 4 stop difference i know that there wont be any details in the shot! but like you said reguarding her image she needs to meter for the highlights for sure and convert it from there, and also keep the camera set to color not on b&w mode so she can get the best range of contrast on conversion!

Joined: 09 Sep 2006 Posts: 114 Location: Boston, MA

A 35 mm digital sensor APS-C to full frame has about 5 stop stop dynamic range. A MF sensor has a wider dynamic range because it has a bigger sensor with a higher pixel pitch. A MF sensor also captures smoother tonal transitions along high contrast edges.

Yes, if you shoot chromes and you have a 4 stop range in the scene..you need to go for those highlights and let the shadows fall where they may.

Now just so you dont think I am in total disagreement, dynamic range of the digital sensor is directly related to its size. so as the sensor gets smaller, so does its dynamic range. But a DSLR such as my canon 1Ds and 20D can hold 5 stops. Now if someone is using a point and shoot digital I would agree with you and take a stop away..

It doesnt really matter in her case because that wasnt the whole point of the post.

Joined: 22 Nov 2006 Posts: 81 Location: MA

ahhh ok dynamic range.....i follow you there....sorry for the misinterpretation, i know what you mean! as for the MF yes the aptus supposedly has a 12 stop dynamic range!

sorry we hijacked your post, just meter for the highlights shoot it in color and convert from there!

Joined: 09 Sep 2006 Posts: 114 Location: Boston, MA

Latitude is dynamic range which is also contrast